Wayne State University Orthopaedic Surgery, Detroit, MI

word around is application rejected.

Did it get approved? No mention of it anywhere.

did anyone who interviewed with them, get a response?

hello mr john elliot. i was just wondering if the wayne state residents will be rotating at miosh with dr lemos and his crew as well as with dr milia. is dr. teitge part of the wayne state program? im just curious on how the sports rotation is set up. thank you.

crimeboss

I don't have overt angst...it's more like a smoldering ire, but deep down there's a feeling of hope and promise...I think.

RHSC

I bet those flyers are advertising other things like:
-Low crime
-Near multiple universities
-Outstanding quality-of-life
-Live and practice where others come to vacation
-Take your golf skills to the next level
-The city still maintains a ‘smaller community’ feel
-Diverse neighborhoods
-Unique combination of urban sophistication and small-town warmth

Folks...this is Detroit.

To clarify my previous post:

The ACGME withdrawal was for a NEW program and the withdrawal of application is dated 12/2007, months after even the last stalwarts of the old regime finished its tenure. I am inquiring about changes from that NEW application to this NEW application.

Typing in bold that WSU is committed to this program does not assuage concerns. Building a program does not sound viable when concerns are being voiced by school officials in the Detroit papers that the financial situation of the medical school is one that necessitates physician lay-offs with an indeterminate endpoint.

The latest orthopaedic oncology recruitment fliers have reverted to an age-old technique of not naming the institution or city. The picture is even taken from Windsor, Ontario, Canada (which is actually closer to St. John's than is Oakwood). It focuses on sports teams, restaurant numbers, and park acreage. The pamphlets are in thousands of mailboxes from coast to coast. Most people read those and wonder what part of Montana or Western Nebraska, etc. they are being recruited to.

Despite RHSC's overt angst, he raises a point that should not be overlooked: the WSU-SOM previous treatment of orthopaedics. The collective chairs of the clinical depts voted to pursue a contract extension with DMC without the ortho dept for the purpose of avoiding an ugly confrontation with their neighbors. That move sealed the fate of the previous dept - argue all you want about how they got to that point - but that vote was the last nail in the coffin. "I can't believe we just fired orthopaedics" is a direct quote from a then WSU dept chair also at that meeting. How did choosing that side that turn out for WSU? Is there still marital bliss?

There was also not an answer as to what the strengths of the program will be. Wayne State University School of Medicine has an over 100-year history of training medical students, residents, and other professionals. Within which sub-specialties will the NEW program sustain the trend of history. I believe we have rules out trauma (no level I center), oncology (no oncologist), and pediatrics (U of M)? Should probably add sports (Oakwood doctors are very active in the DMC's goal of a sports medicine center of excellence).

Again, good luck.

I've got to chime in on this one as well...

As humeraljoint2 has pointed out, there are a number of issues with this proposed program...And that is what it is at this stage, proposed.

What do you mean when you say that the "new program and faculty and have the full support of Wayne State University." Does this mean that the UPG and the Dean won't sell out the department and the residents this time?

I didn't even think about the transportation issue and the number of sites until now, but that was, and will always be, a sticking point with the ACGME. I just took it for fact until I moved on to a different program and realized that you don't have to put 100s of miles on your car every week for your residency. There is something to be said to learning and doing your residency in a few places.

Like humeraljoint2 said, there are some big issues with the proposed sites and the faculty. Right now the program is very theoretical and I am curious as what was put down on the PIF for faculty. To those who have followed events, there WSU faculty was decimated. There is only one holdover faculty that is still there according to the WSU web site. Any new faculty would basically be "deputized" doctors from Oakwood and St. Johns who have run their private practice without residents for most of their careers. There's a reason that they went into private practice. Also, WSU is currently advertising for most of a department on the academy website:

The Department of Orthopaedic Surgery at the Wayne State University School of Medicine seeks candidates for several faculty positions to include: Orthopaedic Surgeon - Hand, Orthopaedic Surgeon - Foot and Ankle, Orthopaedic Surgeon - Oncology, and Orthopaedic Research Director (M.D. or Ph.D. degree required).

What faculty do they actually have?

As for the sites,

St Johns - the presumed trauma location. A level II center without a dedicated traumatologist. Run by private practice groups on the east side of town. Not a real trauma hospital. Some knife and gun, some blunt trauma, but not a lot of volume. Not the ideal setting for your trauma rotation.

Oakwood - a large community hospital with a few other GME programs. This is the lifeboat hospital for WSU when they split with the DMC for some of the programs that they got in the divorce. This seems to be the center site for the program, but again it is private practice docs that have run stuff without residents. This is also in another part of SE Michigan.

The VA - it's the VA.

Karmanos - like humeraljoint2 said, a traumatologist is running things there now. For those not familiar with the area there are two Mankin trained oncologists at Ford, another oncologist at Beaumont, one in the north around Macomb and U of M has one. Having 5 ortho oncologists in SE Michigan already is going to make it hard to recruit someone to the area and it is likely that someone with a soft tissue issue or bone tumor will go to one of the previously mentioned sites anyways. Saying that Karmanos is one of the sites is like pointing out a fancy feature on a new car but then saying that it's not hooked up yet and really you can't use it anyway.

U of M - Doing peds, or any rotation at another institution is always hard. You are the outsider and you will have to learn even another system plus face the prospect of dealing with being the low man on the totem pole no matter what year you are. I'm not even mentioning the drive to Ann Arbor. Good times.

The biggest problem that I have with this new program is this misleading info and the forgetting of what happened. WSU turned a blind eye on the previous residents and I'm really not sure why things would suddenly change. For those following current events, the DMC is currently taking WSU out behind the woodshed and further destroying the school by cutting the payments and subsequently forcing WSU to layoff doctors. Yes doctors, not ancillary staff. The talk of closing whole departments has even come to light because of this, and yet they want to submit a PIF for a new ortho program.

WSU starting a program is far different that when Marshall started a program in WV. WSU is a medical school without its own hospital. It is at the mercy of other systems to partner with for the educational rotations. Again, this is probably not that apparent to those that don't know the situation.

I see this as false advertising. What they are submitting is effectively a community program. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against community programs, you can great training and learn a lot, but it is different than a university setting. If I signed up for a big time university program and all that it entails, I would want to get that and not something else. I think that this program would be fine if it portrayed itself for what it is, and that is an Oakwood Hospital community program, with a cursory affiliation with WSU. This is misleading to those that are thinking about applying.


I think humeraljoint2 and I would love to see the faculty list from the PIF and specific details for the rotations. I think that it shows poor judgment to advertise a program in something that is as competitive as orthopaedics when this program is nothing more than a facade right now.

Peace

A Child with Red Hair

Thank you for your comments.

Wayne State University School of Medicine's planned Orthopaedic Surgery Residency Program is not yet approved by ACGME. It is a NEW program, and we are cautiously optimistic and excited about a July 1, 2008 approval.

Because of a potentially short time-frame we may have in filling PGY-1 and PGY-2 resident slots, we feel it is important to let the public now know of our program status.

If our new program is approved by ACGME, we will suggest to residents that they live in the Dearborn area. The rotations for Trauma (one year in total) and Pediatrics (6 months in total) are distinct. Wednesdays in the AM will be the didactic/educational day.

St. John Hospital and Medical Center (a level II trauma center) will be the primary orthopaedic trauma training site. It should be noted that Oakwood Hospital and Medical Center is currently at level II trauma staffing and has a plan to become a designated trauma center.

Detailed orthopaedic case information from each participating site was supplied to ACGME on March 10, 2008 for a determination of program quality and resident experience.

Wayne State University School of Medicine has an over 100-year history of training medical students, residents, and other professionals. Wayne State University is deeply committed to this new program.

Wayne State University and Karmanos Cancer Institute are partnering to recruit an academic Orthopaedic Oncologist. Those interested in this position can contact me directly at 313-745-1163 or Nate Hightower at 877-884-6354.

We are happy to answer any other questions regarding our planned program (including the sharing of our program faculty names). Please call me directly at 313-745-1163 or Colleen Sturr at 313-745-9880.

Thank you,
John Elliott

THe ACGME webpage under the accredidation history section lists a withdrawn application



What has changed that made an application viable?

St. John's (I assume on Moross) and Mott are >50 miles apart. A trainee could easily spend upto 2hrs a day commuting unless they live in Dearborne or Livonia region (most trainees historically lived in the more socially lively Oakland County) , never drive during rush hour, or the state miraculously completes all I-94, 96, 75, and M-14 construction. Further, the ACGME has made a point to (try to) limit training sites for programs. The number and geographic spread of your sites seems like an issue at both an ACGME and day-to-day convenience level.

What level trauma center will be supported? WSU education has a remarkable trauma tradition... largely based on its location within the city. Most of its greatest contributions to orthopaedics have been in trauma or by those who contributed to trauma care within their area of interest. (The names Mast, Mayo, Manoli, Moed, Haidukewych, Weber, Sangeorzan come to mind immediately). What basis is there to suggest a continuation of WSU's greatest strength or to support that the mind, skill, and resources are available to establish a new strength to equal if not surpass a now dead tradition?

WSU-SOM is very publically laying off faculty/staff for financial reasons. How does this coincide with a commitment to start a training program from scratch, let alone one that can grow? A seasoned skeptic would ask if this is largely a ploy to capture CMS dollars that (can) accompany ACGME trainees while at the same time showing your neighbors that you can get an orthopaedic program approved too. I am not certain, but I believe such skeptics exist.

Are there numbers of cases, etc to support that Mott can accomidate both U of M and WSU trainees without compromising either group's learning?

Karmanos is currently staffed by a DMC traumatologist. How does this coincide with the WSU plan? Further, Karmanos has publically described its renovation efforts as an "operating room on stilts". Are expectations still that high?

The only university I see listed among your training sites is the U of M. I understand WSU neither runs nor operates hospitals, but there is are only two sites (VA and Karmanos) even on the medical school campus. Even collectively, those sites cannot compose a considerable portion of any orthopaedic training program, particularly without an orthopaedic oncologist. The professional relationship with the Oakwood MC is very new and that remains largely a more "private-type" setting though admittedly they have several well-reputed ACGME accredited programs and a well trained orthopaedic staff, presumably ready and willing to teach. Regardless, there appears to be very little "university" in this university program.

Is there a staff list available?

Good luck.

We are cautiously optimistic about a July 1, 2008 approval. The Orthopaedic Surgery RRC meets in Chicago on 6/13 and 6/14. We'd like to fill PGY-1 and PGY-2, a total of up to 8 slots. Wayne State University in Detroit already has the faculty and research staff in place. We told ACGME that (if approved) we'll accept no higher than PGY-2 during the first year of the program.

Thank you,

John Elliott
Wayne State University

Are you accepting PGY-2s or 3's for the class?