bonepain Registered User Posts: 5 (3/2/01 4:13:15 pm) Reply timeline question Sorry, but I have a ton of question, and this forum is a great source of info. What is the typical timeline for the upcoming ortho app process for us ms3s? Specifically.... I assume it is never too soon to start looking at different program broshures and deciding where to apply etc. When should I start getting my app together (ie. asking for rec letters, writing the PS, etc.)??? When do most people get their ERAS app stuff completed?? When do interviews start and end?? I am particularly interested in this question since I was hoping to take October and November off to finish my apps and take a vacation. Is this possible? When do you have to turn in a match list? I am just interested in the general timeline of events so that I can get an idea of what is coming up this year in my head. Thanks, BP crazy joe davola Registered User Posts: 18 (3/2/01 8:04:40 pm) Reply timeline question You're right. It's never too early to begin investigating programs and writing them letters to express interest. These early communications with a program probably won't count for squat politically, but you can never be too ahead of the game once you decide to pursue orthopaedics. I'd become as anal about it as you can stand - organize the information you have (or at least throw it all in the same box). Your most accurate source of information about a program will come from residents at those programs and from students at your school who just recently matched. I would go as far as to suggest calling/writing residents at programs you're interested in. Use the program coordinator/secretary person as an initial contact - she can give you either a list of residents or suggest a particular resident who's doing a research month or something. Now is definitely the time to investigate externships/away rotations - start getting these set up once you decide on locations. Application materials: You should be ready to write your PS if you are confident about ortho as a career. I wrote mine in late July. I found that I had way too much stuff to talk about, instead of too little. You could start looking into the application itself, which is on the ERAS web site, in order to know what info you'll need to include from your CV. Since this year was the first entirely online ERAS year, I'm not sure when you can start filling out your application. There should be a specific date on which programs begin accepting applications (downloading them) - I think this was in September of 2000 for us. One important thing to remember is that you don't want to be in the midst of the most important parts of your application while you are away doing rotations. This applies particularly strongly to letters of recommendation. I rotated at my home program in August and asked for rec letters as soon as I left an attending's service (usually on my last day with that doc). Of course if a staff orthopaedic surgeon already knows you, you could ask now. Typically, asking for letters involves walking a fine line between making sure you don't get hosed while not being overbearing/annoying during the follow-up process. I set a deadline for myself to be finished with my application by August 1st (the parts I had control of), but this was pushed back in part because downloading by the programs was delayed until late September. Regarding vacation in October and November: I'd say go for it, but as I've already said, I did things much earlier. I did away rotations in September and October. In theory, some programs might give preference to applicants who apply earlier (I felt I needed all the help I could get). As long as you're comfortable with your schedule and letters, I would take those months off. You'll start getting interview invitations in mid-November all the way into early January. The match list was due at midnight, February 22nd this year. bonepain Registered User Posts: 6 (3/3/01 4:15:58 pm) Reply November interviews?? Thanks for your very informative post. I am starting to put together a CV and am looking at programs for my away. Any thought on doing an away (ie. it would benefit me and it is logistically not too difficult) on the following: Baylor UT Southwestern Stanford Carolinas or UNC Virginia These are probably my top 5 or 6 programs that I think are reasonably within my reach. Of course, I would love to go to HSS or Hopkins or something, however, I reasoned that doing an away at those programs would not help me any. Also, how many programs interview in November??? Do you know which ones?? I was planning on taking a trip out of country during November (my friend is getting hitched) and so I really would not be able to make an interview during that month. Thus, I was hoping there were not very many programs interviewing during that time. I suppose I could just not apply to those programs. Thanks again. crazy joe davola Registered User Posts: 19 (3/3/01 10:45:58 pm) Reply November interviews?? I heard of very few students actually interviewing in November. I would be sure to have email access during that month and someone to pick up your mail and keep you updated on interview offers (many guys got screwed by waiting even ONE day to respond to emails). I know a little about Southwestern. They interview two groups: rotators and non-rotators (about 50-60 total). Typically they favor those who rotated there. My recommendation would be to rotate there if you're seriously considering them (sounds like you are). Underdog1974 Registered User Posts: 15 (3/4/01 2:27:36 pm) Reply EXTERNSHIP timeline When to do externships is a good question, and something I have been asked by several third-years at my school. I recommend doing them EARLY. Your first sub-internship should be at your home institution. I recommend May or June as good months to do it. Your second sub-internship should be an away rotation at one of your top choices. I recommend June or July. Your third sub-internship should be another away rotation; August or September are good months. Yes, I recommend doing two externships--orthopaedics is a tough field to break into. Many people believe that doing sub-internships LATER in the year is better since applicants are theoretically remembered better. I think this is bull. If you do a great job and are a stand-out, people will remember you. Your evaluations should be able to speak for themselves if you do a stellar job. Many students put off doing their first sub-internship until July or even August. That is crazy, but good for those of you who do their sub-internships early. If you do your first away rotation in July, you will be competing with students at their home institution who will be doing orthopaedics as their very first sub-internship. How can you not look like a star when you have already had a month of orthopaedics at your own school? If you do your away rotation when everybody else is doing them (i.e. September or October), you will be competing with other away sub-interns who want very badly to make a good impression (just like you), and you also will not be able to garner a rec letter from your experience. It's hard to be a stand-out when the competition is so fierce that late in the year. My advice: Do your sub-internships as early as possible. If you can get away with doing three sub-internships by the end of September, you will be in a terrific position to apply, get rec letters from a multitude of faculty, and match. Many people will probably disagree, but I personally think it's easiest to shine early in the year when other students are still trying to figure out how to act in the operating room. Good luck. orthosurg1 Registered User Posts: 8 (3/4/01 7:46:11 pm) Reply timeline reply I think that I would have to agree with most of the stuff that the other guys have put down. These guys know what they are talking about. I think that I would add a couple of things to underdog's statements that may help you out. I did three away rotations. However, due to some of my school's bogus requirements, I was only able to get the months of September, October, and November-December to do aways. The aways in Sept. and Oct. gave me plenty of time to get letters that were able to get to programs on time. (You may have to push the attendings a little harder to get the letters done, though). The away in November did not allow me enough time to get a letter to other programs, but I believe that it was invaluable. First, I was able to get an attending from that program to write me a letter that was put into my file at that program. Second, this certain institution was one that interviews very very few students and I believed without that away, I would not have received an invitation to interview there. Third, I will dispute the fact that a later rotator does not have a little advantage in the "being remembered" category. During my interview, many attendings told me that they felt as if they knew me better than any rotator that had gone through there. I think that a little of that had to do with the fact that I just finished my rotation prior to the interviews. I also feel like if you are trying to figure out what to do in the OR at any time on any rotation (home or away), you are in deep trouble. I think that the secret to having a very successful away rotation does not depend on when you do it (unless your main objective is to get a letter), it has to do with three basic things. One, working your butt off. I mean working harder than you ever have...taking call every second or third night, offering to help out on anything when you are not busy, and giving your pager # to the on-call guy on nights that you are NOT on call just in case something interesting comes in or they need an extra set of hands. Second, when your not working, you're studying about tomorrow's cases, that day's cases, and then about ortho in general. Third, and probably the one that is pure luck in many cases, is the ability to fit in with the residents and even attendings. If by some chance, you seem to have a lot in common with the residents and they like you, you're as good as gold. Last, but not least, relax and enjoy the journey.