Gnight Registered User Posts: 2 (2/28/01 8:15:45 pm) Reply I'm sure you're tired of this question but... I can imagine most people are getting tired of this question but my insecurity causes me to ask. How often do you think a person with a GPA of 3.2 (from a state school), Step 1 scores in the 220's, and no research until beginning of the 4th year will get accepted into ortho? I'm in this range and have just discovered that ortho may be for me. I've put myself behind the eight ball with my grades and lack of research and am wondering if there is glimmer of hope. I'm not trying to go to HSS or Campbell Clinic, I just want to go somewhere. If you really break down my question, I'm asking what you all think is THE BARE MINIMUM to match in Ortho. crazy joe davola Registered User Posts: 17 (3/1/01 8:27:59 pm) Reply I'm sure you're tired of this question but... I'm talking mostly out of my butt here because I haven't matched yet, but I'll mention a couple of things: Eventually, you have to take a critical look at your numbers, just to be realistic. Of course there are plenty of students who apply with worse numbers than yours, but they are a minority and ortho doesn't appear to be getting less competitive. I'd say the biggest concern (i.e. what will stand out to programs) is your GPA. Board scores in the 220s will be somewhere around the average program's cutoff point for screening applications (based on hearsay from the interview trail). But more importantly, you'll have to decide for yourself what your other options are, and whether you want to risk losing a year or two to keep trying to get into orthopaedics (assuming things don't go well). I can't imagine that a majority of advisors would be vehemently against your goal of ortho based on numbers and lack of research, but only you can decide if you're dedicated enough to press on. Finally, there are things you can be doing now. Go to conferences, hang out with residents (without being obnoxious), keep working on research, and blow your electives away after choosing them wisely. If you have a dynamic personality but just had some difficulty early in school, your biggest hurdle is the initial application screeing process - the interview should be nothing but helpful. It sounds like you've already developed some realistic expectations about the different types of programs out there. All programs definitely do not put out the same types of surgeons and their styles/personalities vary widely. Underdog1974 Registered User Posts: 12 (3/2/01 8:40:52 am) Reply Well... I am also speculating since I match this year (I hope), but here are a few items to keep in mind: 1) My feeling is that the best residency programs in the country have high cutoff points for GPA and USMLE. That having been said, I believe that a fair number of "middle tier" and "lower tier" residency programs do NOT interview applicants who are exceedingly strong. These programs know that top applicants will not seriously consider their programs for residency training. I think your numbers, while less than desirable, may be more attractive to these programs. You will probably not, however, be interviewed by top programs. I'm trying to be realistic here. 2) Well-thought out externships will be critical. With your numbers, it is possible to send out 50 applications, interview at 8 programs, and not match anywhere! However, if you have performed two externships at "realistic" programs and made a good impression, that can definitely go a long way to helping you out. Program directors may even go so far as to practically guarantee you a position in their match. This involves more than being a hard worker and being smart--you also have to be personable and proactive. Programs like motivated students/residents. And don't think that you need to work with the chairman of a department to make an impression. Working with assistant professors can be just as helpful, if not more so. Make sure the externships you pick are at reachable places. Hospital for Special Surgery, for example, does NOT interview everybody who rotates through there. There are a lot of marginal candidates who do an externship there but are subsequently disappointed when they aren't offered an interview. Make sure that the externship is the appropriate level for you (or maybe just a bit beyond your level). 3) Make sure those rec letters are good. They don't have to be big name, but they need to contain key words like, "Outstanding student" and "He will be extremely competitive for our own program." Try to get ALL of your rec letters from orthopaedic attendings/profs. I can't tell you how many times people said to me, "Oh, you've worked with so-and-so. How's he doing?" 4) Lack of research is not a huge problem, but it can only help. It is hard to stand out on the interview trail since ALL the other applicants have big GPAs and USMLEs and name-brand schools. What makes you better than the 80 other people interviewing here today? Research is difficult, though, and programs know it. Many programs these days are leaning toward a research-oriented curriculum, meaning that they reserve chunks of time during residency training solely for research. Many programs encourage a year off (top academic programs). By the time I finish medical school, I will have six manuscripts and two abstracts published. Two manuscripts and the abstracts have already been published. I feel this made a HUGE difference in the way programs viewed me. Some of the more mediocre programs won't care as much, but it still looks impressive to have publications. Since you don't have much time left, I enourage you to do some clinical studies and see if you can have these studies accepted in abstract form BEFORE you apply. You still have time, if you plan the rest of your year carefully. It's hard to determine the BARE MINIMUM for matching in ortho. A lot of it depends on your personality and ability to get along with other people. If you are a difficult person, the best board scores in the world won't matter (well, to some programs they might, but you don't want to go there). As Crazy Joe says, be realistic about expectations. You may need a back-up plan in case you don't match. Many students with better numbers than yours go unmatched, which is something to consider. Good luck with applications. residencygirl Registered User Posts: 1 (3/7/01 9:24:48 pm) Reply Re: Well... I am a residency coordinator for one of the top residency programs. While we get hundreds of applications, there are many things that we do consider. First of all, our cutoff for USMLE is 220. As the residency coordinator, I review ALL applications, read all personal statements. By the date of the cutoff to accept applications, I know these applicants like the back of my hand. My input counts, so remember while you're on the Ortho rotation, get to know the residency coordinator. I know that I am never too busy to help out a student. If you need letters of recommendation, come and ask us, that is what we are there for. These are many things that we consider when deciding who to invite for an interview. We use board scores, GPA, publications, research, and extra-curricular activities. How active have you been, are you active in your church, Habitat for Humanity? All of these things count. Get to know the residents, their input is invaluable. Good luck to each of you in the match. I hope that this information is of use to you.