Race

[MDortho]

Do programs consider race when interviewing applicants? I know almost all the guys in my class applying ortho(Grades, board scores, research) and they are getting many more interviews than me, when my credentials are better than all of them...LOR are great also, nothing wierd on my apps except my race.

[orthoguy11]

Just a quick question for you (noting that I'm not an attending...), but what race are you? I can't imagine programs being racist. I'm not the typical big white guy and I feel like I got the proper amount of interviews for what my application was. And more than that, at no interiew did I feel left out because I am a minority. I don't think you can say that your application doesn't have any "weird" stuff on it; the only people that can say that are the PD's that choose the interviewees. You may have just a little thing on personal statement that's a red flag. I don't know. But I don't think you can say that your app is flawless.

[cheetah]

That's a good question MDortho. I'm in the same boat as you. I've been wondering what in the world is wrong with my app. I've only received 1 interview out of 65 apps so far. The programs I rotated at haven't given out interviews yet. I have the average board score for those that match, ortho research, publication, poster presentation, great letters of rec (I've seen 3/5 even though I've waived the right), even won an orthopaedic award for my performance on the rotation and faculty recommendation. I honored half of pre-clinical and half of 3rd year. Honored all of 4th year including 2 ortho sub-I's, ortho research, and ICU months, all on ERAS transcript by deadline. I had two academic ortho docs review my personal statement, nothing obviously weird to them. I thought I was a great candidate.

Only weird thing on my app is my RACE also. With all that's going on in the world, it won't surprise me if that's the case. I've certainly experienced racist comments while in the OR, but you can't say anything as a med-student trying to get into Ortho, you don't want to ruin your chances. I've been denied by 12 places, what in the world is going on????

"Racism" is a strong word, but "average" candidates like myself are a dime a dozen. Would PD's choose a caucasian over me? Maybe, I'm not sure. I don't think they are racist, that's a strong word, but rather "biased." Who knows, I'm going nuts trying to figure out why I'm not getting interviews and race is at the top of my list for the reasons why.

[bwoods08]

the race issue is always a sticky subject and one that alot of people have a difficult time acknowledging. Is there intrinisic racism in medicine/ortho, I think it is niave to think otherwise. As a black man and medical student you would not believe how many times I walked into a room and was dismissed as being a nurse, one patient asked me if I was a food tech. Ultimately thought I believe being a minority is an advantage for numerous reason. I have experiences and have been through things that most in medicine have not, and thus I believe I can relate to my patients on a more personal level alot of the time. Second as a minority in ortho you will stand out just based on race. If you stand out in a positive or negative light is more a product of your work ethic, character, ect..

Bottom line does being black/minority still matter, I think it does, and considering how hard you work in residency being around people you are comfortable with is important. And the reality is that some people/ possibly programs are more comfortable with people like them. However ultimately being a minority is an advantage as we bring different experiences, perspectives, ideas to the table. And it strengthens programs to have a diverse house staff as not only is it good for patient care but also the people you are in the trenches with as we all learn from each other. I feel I have a tremendous responsibility to succeed and I view my race as an asset not a crutch. However in America the unfortunate reality is race still matters.

[Obra4]

Race is normal not weird........why so fast to the race card........

[ortho2003]

Programs do consider race. They attempt ot increase the number of minority and female applicants. It is a goal specifically set forth by the Orthopaedic RRc and comes up at every programs review. Any program would be foolish not to reach out to minorities and women. I know at our program, we typically interview 25% or more females and minorities, while they represent less than 10% of all applicants applying.

[cheetah]

I agree that programs appreciate diversity and actively try and increase minorities in programs. Here's an articles from jaaos- http://www.jaaos.org/cgi/content/full/15/suppl_1/S37 about women and minorities. Having worked with diversity issues extensively, I can tell you there are a few groups of minorities that programs, med schools, businesses etc... care about. These include african americans, hispanic, native american, and asian american/pacific islanders. The aamc explicitly named these groups as underrepresented minorities and these are the groups programs try and recruit.

If you are in the "other" category like myself, this does not help you and may even hurt you given current world events. So being african american, hispanic, etc.. is definetely a plus on your app and should help (theoretically) but this is certainly not the case for other minority groups, unless you're a female, then at least you have that going for you.

[bwoods08]

what does other mean?

[Bone_Jock]

Not an attending. Am a Fellow.

Tread lightly when breaching this topic. This is a very sensitive subject. Lots of things come into play. Region, application, variety of programs applied to. I'm african-american. Was an average applicant when I applied 6 years ago. Got interviews at some great programs and ended up in a great residency program. Not only am I african-american, but I came from a pretty impoverished background (inner-city, poor, child of single parent, etc.). I only mention that because most of the people in ortho that I have come into contact with the past 6 - 7 years are not from that sort of background. With that said. . . . . . .I can truly only recall only 2 or 3 times that I have felt out of place or unwanted during my training. That counts residency, national meetings, conferences, interviews, etc. I'm from the midwest, and trained in the midwest, so the climate may just be different.

If any thing, I saw race as an advantage. You show up on interview day and there's seriously 40 6-foot, white guys, with dark hair in black suits. Then there was me, 6-foot-3, black guy in a black suit. Who do you think they'll remember best? I was also a Jock, so that may have helped me out a bit too.

As for the paucity of interviews. . . . . . . . . .there has got to be something that sticks out about the application. It could be board scores, a bad LOR, odd personal statement, a bad rotation grade, your program origin, poor selection of programs to apply too (i.e. applied to "upper tier" places w/o any "lower tier" places in the mix). Knowing the review process at my residency program. Choices of whom to interview was based on board scores, LOR's, grades, research/publications. . . . . . . .not race. Just my anecdotal experience.

[bwoods08]

Bone_Jock I would like to talk to you sometimes, always good to meet brothas like yourself, pm me

[redbull]

interesting the comment you make about meeting "brothas", is that not racist? I am white, but would it ever be appropriate for me to publicly tell someone else I would like to meet them because they are "(insert word for white man)" like myself?

[bwoods08]

racist, thats funny. As a minority it is not often that I have come across other minorities in medicine, especially in orthopaedics. It would be nice if we lived in a world that race does not matter, but unfortunately it does. As a minority in medicine I have had to over come obsticles that others have not. I am not complaning about this, as I believe ultimately the struggles i have endured only make me stronger and ultimately a better doctor. But if you think that there is not opposition to minorities in medicine and in orthopaedics you are mistaken. As someone who aspires to become an orthopaedic sergeon it is inspiring to meet other brothas that have done it before me. As they can provide insight and wisdom. Just as you would ask a future collague for advise about a rotation at a new hospital.

[Staff]

guys, play nice in the sand box. redbull, we all seek others in our field who relate. race and gender are the easiest notable attributes that may bind 2 people from shared experiences. other shared experiences like where you grew up, went to college, or medical school, also link 2 people who otherwise do not know each other.

as fare as race, i have avoided this question because it is a hot button topic. for all of the majority students. the application pool for the underrepresented minorities (URM) and women is small. just playing the odds, you are more likely to be directly to be competing with a a majority student than a URM or woman.

here is a recent article that discusses the numbers. http://www.jaaos.org/cgi/content/full/15/suppl_1/S37

[bwoods08]

interesting, thanks for that article and perspective

[bwoods08]

i must be honest, comments like redbulls are annoying and to me shows a true lack of perspective. That is just me, obviously i am biased.